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The Trinity & Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the Contemporary Gender Debate

The Trinity & Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the Contemporary Gender Debate

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Product Info Reviews

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Rating: 1 stars
Summary: This guy is wrong from the very first paragraph, ........
Review: but so are his critics, especially Reviewer Phantaz Sunlyk (Whitefish, MT United States). I'm not even going to try to explain why because it would take up too much space. For starters, read the following books:
How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God - 0882906070
The Father Is Not the Son - 1890828076

The "Nicene Trinity" is a figment of medieval imagination. This is historical fact, and the proof is found throughout medieval and world history books and texts. It's really too well-known to even argue about it, so I won't. Just read the books.

The author says something about the Trinity no longer being considered obtuse, secondary, and impractical dogma. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Very few Protestant sects believe the Trinity exactly as the medieval bishops were forced to agree to. Even in those days, 1800 bishops signed a statement saying that they did not agree with the Nicene Trinity. Today, mainly Catholic, and some Protestant sects accept this weakest of Christian doctrines. The irony is that this doctrine has possibly caused more murder, torture, and mayhem than any other doctrine in any other religion, except Islam. For nearly two thousand years "Christians" have slaughtered people in the name of the Trinity.

I paraphrase from "The Father Is Not the Son":
We do not find anything like the doctrine of the Trinity in its developed form in the New Testament. If the Trinitarian doctrines cannot be found in the Bible, then Jesus Christ and his apostles did not teach those doctrines. If Jesus and his apostles did not teach them, then belief in such a doctrine is not mandatory for salvation. If Trinitarian doctrines are not mandatory for salvation, then they cannot be used as a litmus test for membership in the Christian community.

The Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; numerically three persons. One in purpose. So, stop the persecution, the bigotry, the intolerance, the hate, and the arguing, and try to act like Christians.


Rating: 1 stars
Summary: Caveat Emptor
Review: Giles approaches three distinct issues in this work: the Trinity, the Contemporary Gender Debate, and Slavery in the Christian Tradition. It is soley with regard to the first of these, the Trinity, that I am concerned.

Giles' work on the Trinity, though not entirely incorrect, is riddled with errors and saturated in poor use of the writings of the Tradition, alongside what I consider deceptive use of much contemporary Trinitarian theology. Two examples: he claims that Athanasius denied the monarchy of the Father, and he claims that Rahner's rule teaches that the Incarnation reveals the godhead indiscriminately (rather than revealing something about the manner in which the specific person of the Son is specifically related to the specific person of the Father).

I could go on at great length concerning what I take to be the many inadequacies of this work; indeed, I have elsewhere. For a 150 page response to Giles' approximately 100 page treatment of the Trinity in this work, search Tekton Apologetics Ministries (available on-line). In the article, I leave open to Giles the opportunity to respond. I think that prospective buyers of Giles' work, and those who would enthusiastically endorse Giles' claims, would do well to consult this lengthy article before doing so.

Also, for books, I suggest that the interested reader consult the following on the Trinity (all available here on Amazon):

The God of Jesus Christ, Walter Kasper

The Mystery of the Trinity, Boris Bobrinskoy

The Tripersonal God, Gerald O'Collins

Prayer, Hans urs von Balthasar

The Image and Likeness of God, Vladimir Lossky

Peace and all the best.

Rating: 1 stars
Summary: Caveat Emptor
Review: Giles approaches three distinct issues in this work: the Trinity, the Contemporary Gender Debate, and Slavery in the Christian Tradition. It is soley with regard to the first of these, the Trinity, that I am concerned.

Giles' work on the Trinity, though not entirely incorrect, is riddled with errors and saturated in poor use of the writings of the Tradition, alongside what I consider deceptive use of much contemporary Trinitarian theology. Two examples: he claims that Athanasius denied the monarchy of the Father, and he claims that Rahner's rule teaches that the Incarnation reveals the godhead indiscriminately (rather than revealing something about the manner in which the specific person of the Son is specifically related to the specific person of the Father).

I could go on at great length concerning what I take to be the many inadequacies of this work; indeed, I have elsewhere. For a 150 page response to Giles' approximately 100 page treatment of the Trinity in this work, search Tekton Apologetics Ministries (available on-line). In the article, I leave open to Giles the opportunity to respond. I think that prospective buyers of Giles' work, and those who would enthusiastically endorse Giles' claims, would do well to consult this lengthy article before doing so.

Also, for books, I suggest that the interested reader consult the following on the Trinity (all available here on Amazon):

The God of Jesus Christ, Walter Kasper

The Mystery of the Trinity, Boris Bobrinskoy

The Tripersonal God, Gerald O'Collins

Prayer, Hans urs von Balthasar

The Image and Likeness of God, Vladimir Lossky

Peace and all the best.

Rating: 5 stars
Summary: Is God in some way Subordinate to God?
Review: Kevin Giles has written a provocative work entitled _The Trinity and Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the
Contemporary Gender Debate_ (Downer's Grove: IVP,
2002). While I disagree with him doctrinally, I concur with Giles' overall assessment of Christian history concerning the status that the post-Nicene church assigned to the Son.

Giles' book is divided into three parts and contains
three appendices along with subject and author
indices. He packs so much historical information into
his 282-page book that scholars should be able to benefit from his study. Yet, students and laypersons will also find this book a delightful read since it is accessible and flows because of its quality prose.

Giles further appears to have a broad knowledge of
church history and his erudition is on full display in
_The Trinity and Subordinationism: The Doctrine of God and the Contemporary Gender Debate_. Buy it today!

Rating: 5 stars
Summary: Excellent, elegant, erudite, encouraging, egalitarian
Review: This book is great! It is divided into three sections: 1) a discussion of the Trinity, hierarchicalists ' claims that there is eternal subordination within God, and a review of the historical church's position; 2) a discussion of the church's historical view of women, followed by chapters that show that hierarchicalists and egalitarians both depart from the historical position, and 3) a discussion of slavery and how the historic position is legitimately repudiated today, and how this parallels the women's issue debate, and how the way that Athanasius and Augustus handled the issue of the Trinity provides the methodology evangelicals need now to get beyond prooftexting, without dismissing the Bible but upholding its authority, to decide theological issues like this one in our age and culture.
With charity and humor, Giles lucidly and effectively skewers subordinationist and hierarchical arguments. At the end, he expresses his sincere delight in the way that God used Giles' study of these matters to broaden his understanding of what it means to do theology. Inspirational!
Giles is extremely well-read and the book has extensive footnotes and author and Scripture indices. The first section is weighty reading, especially if you are not used to reading theology, but definitely worth it, after that the rest of the book is easier. The book also includes a helpful appendix on homosexuality. The chapters on the Reformers view of the Trinity, the one on the novelty of the hierarchical position on women today, and the one on the "biblical" case for slavery particularly stand out. After reading the book I definitely felt better intellectually, emotionally and spiritually prepared to defend my own understanding of Scripture, recognizing my own fallibility and the grace I (and we all) daily receive as imperfect interpreters of God's word to us today. The book was a marvelous, concise course in Trinitarian theology and in hermeneutics, with two great case studies to hammer points home.
Every egalitarian who wants to be well informed about how to answer Grudem, Piper et al's claims that relationships between men and women should image the "eternal subordination" supposedly found in the Trinity should read this book.


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